From: "Alec H. Peterson" <ahp@hilander.com>
To: NTIADC40.SMTP40("dougd@mail.airmail.net")
Date: 4/14/98 3:33pm
Subject: Re: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

At 02:59 PM 4/14/98 , Doug Davis wrote:
>
>Out of curiosity, and from the perspective of a little ISP
>who has to struggle through the mounds of roadblocks for
>every little /24 that we need, I would ask you why not?

Because much of that information could be considered proprietary.

Just a shot in the dark...

Alec

CC: Kim Hubbard <kimh@arin.net>

###

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "dougd@mail.airmail.net" <dougd@mail.airmail.net>
Date: 4/14/98 3:38pm
Subject: RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 2:27 PM, Roeland M.J. Meyer[SMTP:rmeyer@mhsc.com] wrote:
@At 13:59 4/14/98 -0500, Doug Davis wrote:
@>> We do not disclose information on requests as you well know.
@>
@>Out of curiosity, and from the perspective of a little ISP
@>who has to struggle through the mounds of roadblocks for
@>every little /24 that we need, I would ask you why not?
@
@Agreed, why not?
@
@Also, it would be nice to have the equivalent of a whois, for IP-blocks.
@That is, given an IP addr, who owns it?
@

I agree....I have been advocating that a COMPLETE transcript
of ALL communication be collected in real-time and posted to
show what went on to obtain every allocation. Let everyone watch
and comment.

In the past, I have seen attempts at this. Usually someone gets
the "run around" long enough where they get up enough guts to
post their concerns to some list. Generally, if they do not get
support the thread dies. In some cases I have seen the heat
gets turned up and eventually someone from the InterNIC steps
in and requests that the person resolve it off-line and the person
disappears never to return IF an allocation is made.

If they do return, there is usually a gang of thugs standing by to
beat them into submission and they disappear never to return.
Somehow the thugs know that the allocation is not going to be
made. It is always interesting to try to figure out how they know.

In summary, it all happens at about the level of 6 graders in a
school yard. The "lettermen" (jocks) of course do not participate.
They do everything out of sight. That is because they are part
of the "in group" (i.e. the clique).
-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'Alec H. Peterson'" <ahp@hilander.com>
Date: 4/14/98 3:56pm
Subject: RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 2:33 PM, Alec H. Peterson[SMTP:ahp@hilander.com] wrote:
@At 02:59 PM 4/14/98 , Doug Davis wrote:
@>
@>Out of curiosity, and from the perspective of a little ISP
@>who has to struggle through the mounds of roadblocks for
@>every little /24 that we need, I would ask you why not?
@
@Because much of that information could be considered proprietary.
@
@Just a shot in the dark...
@

No, it is because the process is mostly subjective and depends on who you are.
They can not document a subjective process. They do not want a simple
application that any clerk could process. Instead, they want to be able to give
addresses to the "right" people and give other people the run around. I think
they think this is part of the screening process. Maybe it is a throw-back to
the academic world ? Those with the right thesis advisor get admitted and sail
through, those who have not played the game never finish.

Unfortunately, businesses do not take very kindly to the academic models.
This is why the U.S. Government is being brought in to make changes.
-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###

+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------+
|Alec H. Peterson - ahp@hilander.com | Network Engineer |
|http://www.hilander.com | Erols Internet - an RCN Company |
+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------+

###

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'Alec H. Peterson'" <ahp@hilander.com>
Date: 4/14/98 4:09pm
Subject: RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 3:03 PM, Alec H. Peterson[SMTP:ahp@hilander.com] wrote:
@At 03:56 PM 4/14/98 , Jim Fleming wrote:
@>
@>No, it is because the process is mostly subjective and depends on who you
@are.
@
@Right, Jim.
@
@Let me ask you this: What interest would ARIN (or any registry for that
@matter) have in engaging in this sort of behavior? What do they gain?
@

For that answer you would have to look at why a person
works for a company like ARIN. Is it the high pay ? Is it the power ?
Is it the low stress ? Is it a religious crusade ? Is it the travel ? Is it
the visibility in the industry ? Is it out of love for the Internet ?
Take your pick...

Unfortunately, this is similar to the situation you may have encountered
where you see one of these people employed as a private security
guard for a large office building. You may have seen the type. Chromed
sunglasses, crew-cut, night-stick, chewing gum, and enough radios and
walkie talkies hanging on them to open a Radio Shack. Thank god most
do not have guns. Why do they do it ? I have no idea, I suppose in the
end it is because it makes them feel good...

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###

From: Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.net>
To: "Alec H. Peterson" <ahp@hilander.com>
Date: 4/14/98 4:15pm
Subject: Re: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

On Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 03:28:26PM -0400, Alec H. Peterson wrote:
> At 03:18 PM 4/14/98 , Karl Denninger wrote:
> >
> >You're lying through omission again Kim.
> >
> >You, at the Internic, were asked for the allocation.
> >You refused it.
> >
> >@HOME went to Jon Postel directly.
> >He directed you to grant it out of space he assigned.
> >
> >Is this not the truth?
>
> Karl,
>
> So what if it is?

If it is then the process by which ARIN claims to operate is bogus. @HOME
was clearly in ARIN's (and NSI's before ARIN) boundary of responsibility.

Either the process is clean or it is corrupt. If it is clean then the same
rules apply to all. If it is corrupt then nobody knows what makes it work,
what basis is applied to decisions, what documentation is demanded from
whom, who complies and who refuses, and what the reason for the eventual
outcome of those decisions is.

There is only ONE way to prevent corruption in this kind of process where
*BILLIONS* of dollars worth of assets (and yes, Alec, they are assets) are
at stake - FULL ACCOUNTABILITY.

Doing that does NOT require that you disclose proprietary information, as
some have charged. It *does* require that the requests which come in, the
document demands from ARIN and/or NSI, the responsiveness (or lack thereof)
to those demands, the evaluative criteria (ie: percentage of host addresses
ACTUALLY found in use .vs. guidelines) and the RESULTS of that decision
process.

> Which of these bodies do you want to sue over it? ARIN/InterNIC? IANA?
> @Home?
>
> Alec

I prefer that if someone is shown to have engaged in an illegal act
(say, restraint of trade) that they do time for it. I'm not interested in
trying to get rich off of this entire mess.

I am far more concerned that the *public* has been defiled here.

CC: Kim Hubbard <kimh@arin.net>

###

From: "Alec H. Peterson" <ahp@hilander.com>
To: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Date: 4/14/98 4:17pm
Subject: RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

At 04:09 PM 4/14/98 , Jim Fleming wrote:
>
>For that answer you would have to look at why a person
>works for a company like ARIN. Is it the high pay ? Is it the power ?
>Is it the low stress ? Is it a religious crusade ? Is it the travel ? Is it
>the visibility in the industry ? Is it out of love for the Internet ?
>Take your pick...
I note that you still haven't answered my question.
Before you can accuse a company or person of doing something without a
shred of proof, you at least have to establish motive. You (well, you
aren't alone) have yet to establish said motive.

>Why do they do it ? I have no idea, I suppose in the end it is because it
makes >them feel good...

So basically your entire argument rests on something you can't even answer
yourself.

How ironic.

Alec

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###

From: "Alec H. Peterson" <ahp@hilander.com>
To: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Date: 4/14/98 4:25pm
Subject: RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

At 04:18 PM 4/14/98 , Jim Fleming wrote:
>
>I can not tell you why people work at ARIN or what makes them tick.

And yet you can make sweeping statements about their motives without any
proof?

Alec

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'Alec H. Peterson'" <ahp@hilander.com>
Date: 4/14/98 4:18pm
Subject: RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 3:17 PM, Alec H. Peterson[SMTP:ahp@hilander.com] wrote:
@At 04:09 PM 4/14/98 , Jim Fleming wrote:
@>
@>For that answer you would have to look at why a person
@>works for a company like ARIN. Is it the high pay ? Is it the power ?
@>Is it the low stress ? Is it a religious crusade ? Is it the travel ? Is it
@>the visibility in the industry ? Is it out of love for the Internet ?
@>Take your pick...
@
@I note that you still haven't answered my question.
@

I can not tell you why people work at ARIN or what makes them tick.

One would hope that ARIN (as a company) would be independent
of the people that work there. In other words, any competent person
should be able to walk in, learn the procedures and start working to
serve the public.

As you will note, people claim that only certain people are able to
run the ARIN operation. In my opinion, that is not very wise. What
happens if a plane crashes and those people disappear ?

I would expect that the company as an organism would survive
and move forward. If that is not the case, then it sounds like the
company is someone's private sand-box. Why should the U.S.
Government fund that ?
-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'Alec H. Peterson'" <ahp@hilander.com>
Date: 4/14/98 4:26pm
Subject: RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 3:25 PM, Alec H. Peterson[SMTP:ahp@hilander.com] wrote:
@At 04:18 PM 4/14/98 , Jim Fleming wrote:
@>
@>I can not tell you why people work at ARIN or what makes them tick.
@
@And yet you can make sweeping statements about their motives without any
@proof?
@

How do you get to that ?

People are looking at the results. Those are cold hard facts.

Are you sure that you are not making assumptions about motives
and projecting that on other people ?

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###

From: "Alec H. Peterson" <ahp@hilander.com>
To: Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.net>
Date: 4/14/98 4:27pm
Subject: Re: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

At 04:15 PM 4/14/98 , Karl Denninger wrote:
>
>If it is then the process by which ARIN claims to operate is bogus. @HOME
>was clearly in ARIN's (and NSI's before ARIN) boundary of responsibility.

So what? If ARIN/InterNIC refused, then @Home appealed to the IANA, and
the IANA said okay. How is that ARIN/InterNIC's fault?

I have yet to see where ARIN/InterNIC screwed up on this one.

Alec

CC: Kim Hubbard <kimh@arin.net>

###

From: Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.net>
To: "Alec H. Peterson" <ahp@hilander.com>
Date: 4/14/98 4:29pm
Subject: Re: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

On Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 04:27:52PM -0400, Alec H. Peterson wrote:
> At 04:15 PM 4/14/98 , Karl Denninger wrote:
> >
> >If it is then the process by which ARIN claims to operate is bogus. @HOME
> >was clearly in ARIN's (and NSI's before ARIN) boundary of responsibility.
>
> So what? If ARIN/InterNIC refused, then @Home appealed to the IANA, and
> the IANA said okay. How is that ARIN/InterNIC's fault?
>
> I have yet to see where ARIN/InterNIC screwed up on this one.
>
> Alec

The IANA is Jon Postel in person; he's the beginning and end of it.

Postel is on ARIN's board and was responsible for its formation.

CC: Kim Hubbard <kimh@arin.net>

###

From: "Alec H. Peterson" <ahp@hilander.com>
To: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Date: 4/14/98 4:35pm
Subject: RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

At 04:26 PM 4/14/98 , Jim Fleming wrote:
>
>How do you get to that ?
>
>People are looking at the results. Those are cold hard facts.
>
>Are you sure that you are not making assumptions about motives
>and projecting that on other people ?

No, Jim.

You are making sweeping generalizations in an attempt to 'analyze' these
'cold hard facts'. You say that ARIN makes its decisions based on 'who you
are'. That statement has absolutely no foundation in fact, or anything
even resembling fact.

Yes, there are some cold hard facts here, but it is your extremely warped
analysis of these facts that I take exception to.

Alec

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'Alec H. Peterson'" <ahp@hilander.com>
Date: 4/14/98 4:41pm
Subject: RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 3:27 PM, Alec H. Peterson[SMTP:ahp@hilander.com] <snip>
@
@I have yet to see where ARIN/InterNIC screwed up on this one.
@
@Alec
@

Alec,

The point is not whether ARIN/InterNIC screwed up or not.

The point is that no matter what the evidence there will be
those people that NEVER see a problem and those people
that do see problems and would like to address them and
fix them so that MORE people can enjoy the Internet.

This is the way the old Soviet Union worked. I have several
friends from there and they describe exactly the same
situation. People would stand in line for resources that were
controlled by the state and the right people would get them
and others would not. It was purely subjective.

I would not have a problem with the InterNIC and ARIN if
the people involved would admit that they have a highly subjective
process and only the "right" people should apply. This is the
Country Club model. What I dislike is a system where people
try to give people the impression it is one thing (objective)
when everyone knows it is not.

I especially dislike such systems when they are funded by
U.S. taxpayers and the taxpayers are treated like fools and
expected to stand back and allow the subjective decision-making
to continue. It will not continue. That is why the DOC, DOJ,
Congress, the White House are now involved.

If you think these U.S. Government agencies are involved
because they just happened to not have anything to do then
I think you should consider the fact that people are not alone
in their analysis of the situation. Now the question becomes,
"How do we fix it ?".

I know how I would do it but I am sure there are two people
on planet Earth who would not like that at all...

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###

From: Gordon Cook <cook@cookreport.com>
To: NTIADC40.SMTP40("JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net")
Date: 4/14/98 4:45pm
Subject: Calling Jimmy's bluff RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer

my my my isn't jim fleming getting a bit flustered? :-)

well Jim. Do you have a 19? how did you get it.......? complete details
jim.... Put the shoe on the OTHER FOOT...... there are a lot of us who
would like to know.

I think Kim touched a raw nerve..... Common Jim....full disclosure starts
at home.....authorize Kim to release your records.

>On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 9:48 AM, Kim Hubbard[SMTP:kimh@arin.net] wrote:
>@>
>@We do not disclose information on requests as you well know.
>@
>@I'm sure you wouldn't want me to tell the world your justification for
>@obtaining your /19, would you Jim?
>@
>
>Thank you...you have just proved my point...
>and I have a feeling that you do not even know you did it...
>
>...imagine a doctor at a clinic walking into the waiting room
>and saying..."We do not disclose medical records of people
>and then turning to someone and saying...you certainly would
>not want me to disclose the results of your AIDs test we did
>last week...would you...as the room listens in..."
>
>Now...back to your question...you seem to imply that I have a /19.
>Is that the case ?
>
>You seem to imply that there is something you have to tell.
>Is that the case ?
>
>You also seem to imply that if I have a /19 it is not justified because
>I would not want the world to know how it was justified.
>Is that the case ?
>
>Is this what you call not disclosing information about requests ?
>-
>Jim Fleming
>Unir Corporation
>IBC, Tortola, BVI

PS...sent this privately to fleming.... I meant for it to be public
***************************************************************************
The COOK Report on Internet New Special Report: Building Internet
431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618 USA Infrastructure ($395) available. See
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CC: NTIADC40.NTIAHQ40(BBURR),NTIADC40.SMTP40("amr@CHAO...

###

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'Alec H. Peterson'" <ahp@hilander.com>
Date: 4/14/98 4:49pm
Subject: RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 3:35 PM, Alec H. Peterson[SMTP:ahp@hilander.com] wrote:
<snip>
@
@You are making sweeping generalizations in an attempt to 'analyze' these
@'cold hard facts'. You say that ARIN makes its decisions based on 'who you
@are'. That statement has absolutely no foundation in fact, or anything
@even resembling fact.
@

I was told that directly. This is not a sweeping generalization.

You are the one making sweeping generalizations. You have
no idea what interactions people have with the InterNIC yet
you conclude they have no facts. That is a generalization.

Let me ask you some questions. Let's discuss facts.

How many times in the past three years have you visited
the InterNIC, in person ?

How many times have you obtained IP allocations from
the InterNIC or ARIN ?

Where is Erols located in geographic relationship to the
InterNIC and/or ARIN ? (i.e. how far away are you?)

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

From: "Roeland M.J. Meyer" <rmeyer@mhsc.com>
To: "Fox, Thomas" <tfox@FOXBERRY.COM>
Date: 4/14/98 5:17pm
Subject: RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

Doesn't the Freedom of Information Act apply here?

At 15:50 4/14/98 -0400, Fox, Thomas wrote:
>The justification should be easily obtainable from public sources. It is
>a publicly-owned resource you are administering.
>
>On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 2:49 PM, Kim Hubbard [SMTP:kimh@arin.net] wrote:
>> >
>> We do not disclose information on requests as you well know.
>>
>> I'm sure you wouldn't want me to tell the world your justification for
>> obtaining your /19, would you Jim?
>>
>> -kim
>>
>> > On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 8:53 AM, Kim Hubbard[SMTP:kimh@arin.net]
wrote:
>> > <snip>
>> > @And yes, the IANA approved the initial allocation to @Home but the
>> > @InterNIC did review the application and made the actual allocation.
>> > @
>> >
>> > What did the review of the application show ?
>> >
>> > What role did Paul Mockapetris play in the allocation ?
>> > Was Paul's previous employment at USC/ISI a factor ?
>> >
>> > Also, was Michael St. Johns of @Home involved ?
>> > I believe that he used to be Colonel Michael St. Johns and was
>> > one of the military DARPA managers that funded Jon Postel as the IANA.
>> > Did that have any impact on @Home obtaining that allocation ?
>> >
>> > What factors are taken into account when ARIN "reviews" applications ?
>> >
>> > -
>> > Jim Fleming
>> > Unir Corporation
>> > IBC, Tortola, BVI
>> >
>
___________________________________________________
Roeland M.J. Meyer, ISOC (InterNIC RM993)
e-mail: <mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com>mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com
Personal web pages: <http://www.mhsc.com/~rmeyer>http://www.mhsc.com/~rmeyer
Company web-site: <http://www.mhsc.com/>http://www.mhsc.com/
___________________________________________
SecureMail from MHSC.NET is coming soon!

CC: "'Kim Hubbard'" <kimh@arin.net>

###

From: "Alec H. Peterson" <ahp@hilander.com>
To: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Date: 4/14/98 5:00pm
Subject: RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

At 04:49 PM 4/14/98 , Jim Fleming wrote:
>
>I was told that directly. This is not a sweeping generalization.

Then I suggest you consider your source, Jim. Anybody I can think of who
would say such a thing is not in a position to speak about ARIN's intentions.

>
>You are the one making sweeping generalizations. You have
>no idea what interactions people have with the InterNIC yet
>you conclude they have no facts. That is a generalization.

As you have presented no facts, and still maintain you have no idea what
ARIN's motive to act in this way would be, I must 'generalize' that you
have no clue what you're talking about. When you actually present a reason
that I should believe a single word that you say, I will reconsider my
position.

>
>How many times in the past three years have you visited
>the InterNIC, in person ?

A few.

>
>How many times have you obtained IP allocations from
>the InterNIC or ARIN ?

I myself don't have any IP allocations, as my personal address space needs
really don't require PI space.

>
>Where is Erols located in geographic relationship to the
>InterNIC and/or ARIN ? (i.e. how far away are you?)

Well, Erols is in Springfield VA, and ARIN is in Herndon. About 15 miles
as the crow flies, but about a half hour by car.

I'm fairly sure I know where you're going with this, but just for fun I'll
play along. It's been a long day, I could use a good laugh.

Alec

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'Gordon Cook'" <cook@cookreport.com>
Date: 4/14/98 5:11pm
Subject: RE: Calling Jimmy's bluff RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer

On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 3:45 PM, Gordon Cook[SMTP:cook@cookreport.com] wrote:
@my my my isn't jim fleming getting a bit flustered? :-)
@
@well Jim. Do you have a 19? how did you get it.......? complete details
@jim.... Put the shoe on the OTHER FOOT...... there are a lot of us who
@would like to know.
@
@I think Kim touched a raw nerve..... Common Jim....full disclosure starts
@at home.....authorize Kim to release your records.
@

Gordon,

I did not realize that Kim is keeping records. Just what is she
keeping records on ?

Were those records kept as part of a U.S. Government contract ?

Are those records available via an FOIA request ?

Has ARIN retained records collected as part of a Government contract ?

What exactly is your role again in ARIN ?
Are you on the Board ?
Are you paid by ARIN ?
How about the U.S. Government ? Do they pay you ?

Also, while we have space here...regarding the @Home
allocation, you claim that you interviewed someone there
and have determined that the allocation was legitimate.

Firstly, what makes you think that a simple interview would
disclose anything ?

Secondly, who appointed you to be the verification agent for
the InterNIC ? Just because you declare something to be OK
after you have looked into it, does that mean everyone should
believe you ?

Thirdly, I thought that you said you were not going to respond
to my mail. What happened ?
-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###

From: Doug Davis <dougd@mail.airmail.net>
To: Alec H. Peterson <ahp@hilander.com>
Date: 4/14/98 5:20pm
Subject: Re: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

> At 02:59 PM 4/14/98 , Doug Davis wrote:
> >
> >Out of curiosity, and from the perspective of a little ISP
> >who has to struggle through the mounds of roadblocks for
> >every little /24 that we need, I would ask you why not?
>
> Because much of that information could be considered proprietary.
>
> Just a shot in the dark...

Humm.. Proprietary to whom? Discussion of someone's network topology
would be about the extent of it, which as soon as it's announced will
become public knowledge anyway. I guess the fear is along the lines
of isp-a announcing through a disclosure process that they are about to
move into a new area.
"Justification: expansion into fizbaz"
A competitor finds this out and dumps a bazillion dollars of marketing
into that area just in the nick of time preventing isp-a from reaching
their goals?

If that is the case, far-fetched as it is, perhaps a 30 day waiting
period before making the justification public. After all, we are
talking about a public resource.

CC: NTIADC40.NTIAHQ40(BBURR),NTIADC40.SMTP40("dougd@ma...

###

From: Cathy Wittbrodt <cjw@corp.home.net>
To: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Date: 4/14/98 5:27pm
Subject: Re: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

Also, was Michael St. Johns of @Home involved ?
I believe that he used to be Colonel Michael St. Johns and was
one of the military DARPA managers that funded Jon Postel as the IANA.
Did that have any impact on @Home obtaining that allocation ?

Mike St. Johns did not work at @Home when the allocation was received.
So he did not play a role in the aquisition of the IP address space.

---CJ

CC: "'Kim Hubbard'" <kimh@arin.net>

###

From: Cathy Wittbrodt <cjw@corp.home.net>
To: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Date: 4/14/98 5:30pm
Subject: Re: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Subject: RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off
On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 1:01 PM, Cathy Wittbrodt[SMTP:cjw@corp.home.net] wrote:
@
<snip>
@
@This is nonsense. There was a sound engineering plan that we are executing
@against.
@

As you pointed out, three years ago things were different.
It is funny how three years and an IPO and access to a
huge allocation of IP addresses can produce engineering
plans.

Well it is clear that you have these things quite a lot out of order.
First there was the engineering plan, then there was the acquisition
of address space and network buildout and then there was the IPO.

The reality is that you are going to believe whatever you want
anyway, so I am done with this discussion. I have work to do...

---CJ

CC: Tony Rutkowski <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'Jesse M. Caulfield'" <jesse@netthink.com>
Date: 4/14/98 5:36pm
Subject: Moving Forward

On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 12:36 PM, Jesse M. Caulfield[SMTP:jesse@netthink.com] wrote:
@
<snip>
@
@I would certainly prefer to have my mailbox filled with Q&A concerning how
@to actually work the system, not tear it down.
@
@No offense intended, but let's try to be constructive.
@

I agree...here are some questions people do not seem to want to answer.

1. Can ARIN be used as the corporate vehicle for the IANA Inc. ?

2. Will all ARIN operations be made public ?

3. What is delaying the decision making on #1 and #2 ?

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "antitrust@usdoj.gov" <antitrust@usdoj.gov>

###

From: Kim Hubbard <kimh@arin.net>
To: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Date: 4/14/98 5:41pm
Subject: Re: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

>
No Jim, I was stating that I assume you, like everyone else, would not
want their business plans which in most cases is what is used to
justify address space, made public.

Kim


> On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 9:48 AM, Kim Hubbard[SMTP:kimh@arin.net] wrote:
> @>
> @We do not disclose information on requests as you well know.
> @
> @I'm sure you wouldn't want me to tell the world your justification for
> @obtaining your /19, would you Jim?
> @
>
> Thank you...you have just proved my point...
> and I have a feeling that you do not even know you did it...
>
> ...imagine a doctor at a clinic walking into the waiting room
> and saying..."We do not disclose medical records of people
> and then turning to someone and saying...you certainly would
> not want me to disclose the results of your AIDs test we did
> last week...would you...as the room listens in..."
>
> Now...back to your question...you seem to imply that I have a /19.
> Is that the case ?
>
> You seem to imply that there is something you have to tell.
> Is that the case ?
>
> You also seem to imply that if I have a /19 it is not justified because
> I would not want the world to know how it was justified.
> Is that the case ?
>
> Is this what you call not disclosing information about requests ?
> -
> Jim Fleming
> Unir Corporation
> IBC, Tortola, BVI
>
CC: NTIADC40.NTIAHQ40(BBURR),NTIADC40.SMTP40("JimFlemi...

###

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Message-ID: <01BD67C4.AE474840@pc.unir.net>
From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'Kim Hubbard'" <kimh@arin.net>
Cc: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>,
"antitrust@usdoj.gov"
<antitrust@usdoj.gov>,
"BBURR@ntia.doc.gov" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
"cjw@corp.home.net" <cjw@corp.home.net>,
Ira Magaziner
"JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net" <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Cc: "jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com" <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>,
"karl@MCS.NET"
<karl@MCS.NET>, "naipr@arin.net" <naipr@arin.net>,
"postel@ISI.EDU" <postel@ISI.EDU>
Subject: What Does ARIN Really Need to Know and Why ?
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:45:05 -0500
Encoding: 27 TEXT

###

From: Gordon Cook <cook@cookreport.com>
To: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Date: 4/14/98 6:01pm
Subject: Psycopathology RE: Calling Jimmy's bluff RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer

Typical Fleming bullshit. Realizing he has a lot to fear from full
disclosure by Kim he feints and comes back with his usual 32 irrelevant
questions.

Gee jimmy too bad there's no one for you to go to hang my ass, huh?

To the dignitaries on the CC list..... I will try to refrain from
furtherance of this rediculous exchange.

>On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 3:45 PM, Gordon Cook[SMTP:cook@cookreport.com]
>wrote:
>@my my my isn't jim fleming getting a bit flustered? :-)
>@
>@well Jim. Do you have a 19? how did you get it.......? complete details
>@jim.... Put the shoe on the OTHER FOOT...... there are a lot of us who
>@would like to know.
>@
>@I think Kim touched a raw nerve..... Common Jim....full disclosure starts
>@at home.....authorize Kim to release your records.
>@
>
>Gordon,
>
>I did not realize that Kim is keeping records. Just what is she
>keeping records on ?
>
>Were those records kept as part of a U.S. Government contract ?
>
>Are those records available via an FOIA request ?
>
>Has ARIN retained records collected as part of a Government contract ?
>
>What exactly is your role again in ARIN ?
>Are you on the Board ?
>Are you paid by ARIN ?
>How about the U.S. Government ? Do they pay you ?
>
>Also, while we have space here...regarding the @Home
>allocation, you claim that you interviewed someone there
>and have determined that the allocation was legitimate.
>
>Firstly, what makes you think that a simple interview would
>disclose anything ?
>
>Secondly, who appointed you to be the verification agent for
>the InterNIC ? Just because you declare something to be OK
>after you have looked into it, does that mean everyone should
>believe you ?
>
>Thirdly, I thought that you said you were not going to respond
>to my mail. What happened ?
>
>-
>Jim Fleming
>Unir Corporation
>IBC, Tortola, BVI

***************************************************************************
The COOK Report on Internet New Special Report: Building Internet
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CC: NTIADC40.NTIAHQ40(BBURR),NTIADC40.SMTP40("amr@CHAO...

###

From: Kim Hubbard <kimh@arin.net>
To: Karl Denninger <karl@MCS.NET>
Date: 4/14/98 6:03pm
Subject: Re: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

>
> On Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 01:53:43PM -0400, Kim Hubbard wrote:
> > >
> > Jim,
> >
> > As you know, 24/8 is reserved for *all* cable allocations not just @Home.
> >
> > And yes, the IANA approved the initial allocation to @Home but the
> > InterNIC did review the application and made the actual allocation.
> >
> > @Home has worked very hard to efficiently utilize their address space
> > as well as working with other cable companies to share their knowledge
> > of efficient utilization.
> >
> > Kim
>
> You're lying through omission again Kim.

No Karl, I'm not lying. Jim implied that @Home bypassed InterNIC and
went directly to IANA and IANA made the actual allocation. When in fact,
they first came to the InterNIC. They followed the normal procedures
and appealed to the IANA whereupon the IANA approved an allocation for
an amount of space that was justified. The InterNIC then made the allocation.

Kim

>
> You, at the Internic, were asked for the allocation.
> You refused it.
>
> @HOME went to Jon Postel directly.
> He directed you to grant it out of space he assigned.
>
> Is this not the truth?
>
> And if it is, why did you misrepresent what happened above?
>
> If it is not, please DOCUMENT what actually happened.
>
> If you refuse, with someone at the DOJ please obtain that information via
> subpoena and investigate this ENTIRE thing, including ARIN and its transfer
> from NSI, to see if any laws have been broken?
>
> This is one of the sore spots in this entire mess that looks to me like
> an improper action on the part of a government contractor.
>
> --
> --
> Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin
> http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly / All Lines K56Flex/DOV
> | NEW! Corporate ISDN Prices dropped by up to 50%!
> Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS
> Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost
>

CC: NTIADC40.NTIAHQ40(BBURR),NTIADC40.SMTP40("JimFlemi...

###

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: Karl Denninger <karl@MCS.NET>
Date: 4/14/98 6:13pm
Subject: RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 1:03 PM, Kim Hubbard[SMTP:kimh@arin.net] wrote:
<snip>
@
@No Karl, I'm not lying. Jim implied that @Home bypassed InterNIC and
@went directly to IANA and IANA made the actual allocation. When in fact,
@they first came to the InterNIC. They followed the normal procedures
@and appealed to the IANA whereupon the IANA approved an allocation for
@an amount of space that was justified. The InterNIC then made the allocation.
@

Kim,

I think that you have confirmed the main points people are making.

1. @Home ultimately received a large block of IP addresses from Jon Postel.

2. Jon Postel forced the InterNIC to give them those addresses.

3. This was against standard practices, otherwise InterNIC would have
approved the initial application.

Now, the question becomes, "How can a U.S. Government contractor
like Jon Postel make arbitrary allocations to some companies and not
others ? Where is the U.S. Government oversight in this ?"

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###

From: Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>
To: NTIADC40.SMTP40("dougd@mail.airmail.net")
Date: 4/14/98 6:27pm
Subject: Re: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

Doug and all,

Doug Davis wrote:

> > At 02:59 PM 4/14/98 , Doug Davis wrote:
> > >
> > >Out of curiosity, and from the perspective of a little ISP
> > >who has to struggle through the mounds of roadblocks for
> > >every little /24 that we need, I would ask you why not?
>
> > Because much of that information could be considered proprietary.
> >
> > Just a shot in the dark...
>
> Humm.. Proprietary to whom? Discussion of someone's network topology
> would be about the extent of it, which as soon as it's announced will
> become public knowledge anyway. I guess the fear is along the lines
> of isp-a announcing through a disclosure process that they are about to
> move into a new area.
> "Justification: expansion into fizbaz"
> A competitor finds this out and dumps a bazillion dollars of marketing
> into that area just in the nick of time preventing isp-a from reaching
> their goals?

This is indeed a possibility, but preventable if only pertinent information to

the justification of the portable allocation that a particular party requested
is made available to all. After all we are talking about a public resource.
The other recourse is the "Freedom of information Act", which by the time
it has been processed, the horse is out of the barn, so to speak.

>
>
> If that is the case, far-fetched as it is, perhaps a 30 day waiting
> period before making the justification public. After all, we are
> talking about a public resource.

Exactly. And it seems that some of the ARIN "Dignitaries" are reluctantto
comply with this request.

Regards,

CC: "Alec H. Peterson" <ahp@hilander.com>

###

From: Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>
To: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Date: 4/14/98 6:34pm
Subject: Re: What Does ARIN Really Need to Know and Why ?

Jim and all,

Jim Fleming wrote:

> On Wednesday, April 15, 1998 12:03 AM, Roeland M.J. Meyer[SMTP:rmeyer@mhsc.com] wrote:
> @At 19:36 4/14/98 -0700, Chad Skidmore wrote:
> @>And how long do you think it would take to get those affidavits?
> @
> @I can get one from NetCom in about the time it take to get to my files.
> @It's called a contract to provide services. I will have another from
> @DSLnetworks by the end of this week.
> @
>
> Yes, and just because ARIN does not operate with an open
> process (at the moment) this should not stop people from
> posting their allocation requests and proof to the ARIN mailing
> list(s). This will help to time-stamp the requests and to make
> it clear to the various U.S. Government officials how long it takes
> for ARIN to process an application.

Although crude in nature, this is a good basic facility for providing some
public oversight on the process and the performance of a government
contractor (ARIN), as to how our tax dollars are spent from NSF/IANA
currently and later from the non-profit company to which turn over will
be handed as part of the GP.

>
>
> -
> Jim Fleming
> Unir Corporation
> IBC, Tortola, BVI

regards,

CC: "antitrust@usdoj.gov" <antitrust@usdoj.gov>

###

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'Gordon Cook'" <cook@cookreport.com>
Date: 4/14/98 6:54pm
Subject: RE: Psycopathology RE: Calling Jimmy's bluff RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer

On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 5:01 PM, Gordon Cook[SMTP:cook@cookreport.com] wrote:
@Typical Fleming bullshit. Realizing he has a lot to fear from full
@disclosure by Kim he feints and comes back with his usual 32 irrelevant
@questions.
@

Earth to Gordon, Earth to Gordon...

I have helped many people and companies try to obtain
IP address allocations. You and Kim seem to be working
together to give people the impression that I have a lot to
fear. I am still confused as to why you are so intertwined
with ARIN. Again, what role do you play ?

Last summer you sang from the highest mountains that
you had saved ARIN from the misguided Ira Magaziner.
You now do not seem to want to address the real question
which is "how does the IANA Inc. come about ? "

I have suggested that ARIN would make an ideal corporate
structure for the U.S. Government to use to make that happen.
This will accelerate the process. What do you think of that
proposal ? Wouldn't that help to move things forward ?

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###

From: Cathy Wittbrodt <cjw@corp.home.net>
To: Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: 4/14/98 7:04pm
Subject: Re: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

From: Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off
ALec and all,

Alec H. Peterson wrote:

> At 04:15 PM 4/14/98 , Karl Denninger wrote:
> >
> >If it is then the process by which ARIN claims to operate is bogus. @HOME
> >was clearly in ARIN's (and NSI's before ARIN) boundary of responsibility.
>
> So what? If ARIN/InterNIC refused, then @Home appealed to the IANA, and
> the IANA said okay. How is that ARIN/InterNIC's fault?

Becouse the IANA (Jon Postel) than prevailed on ARIN to allocate the
/8 to @Home. And ARIN complied.

For the BAZILLIONTH TIME @HOME DOES ***NOT*** have a /8. Get your facts
straight.

>
>
> I have yet to see where ARIN/InterNIC screwed up on this one.

ARIN should have told the IANA, NO! You do it yourself. We (ARIN) want
no part in this. That simple.

ARIN didn't exist three years ago when the allocation happened. Again you
are misinformed.

---CJ

CC: "Alec H. Peterson" <ahp@hilander.com>

###

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'Alec H. Peterson'" <ahp@hilander.com>
Date: 4/14/98 7:05pm
Subject: Racketeering by the IANA ???

On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 5:54 PM, Alec H. Peterson[SMTP:ahp@hilander.com] <snip>
@>
@> ARIN should have told the IANA, NO! You do it yourself. We (ARIN) want
@>no part in this. That simple.
@
@Well, if ARIN can tell the IANA to go to hell, then the IANA can say to
@ARIN, "Sorry, you don't get any more addresses to delegate."
@

Whoooooa...are you suggesting that the IANA now engage in racketeering ?
As a member of the ARIN leadership, is this the way you perceive
that things work ? This is strong-arming and you are suggesting that
Jon Postel (the IANA) could use his position as a U.S. Government
contractor to influence other companies like ARIN to do what he wants
by controlling their "supply" of products.

Do you really want to go here....?

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "'arin-council@arin.net'" <arin-council@arin.net>

From: "Alec H. Peterson" <ahp@hilander.com>
To: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Date: 4/14/98 7:12pm
Subject: Re: Racketeering by the IANA ???

At 07:05 PM 4/14/98 , Jim Fleming wrote:
>
>Whoooooa...are you suggesting that the IANA now engage in racketeering ?
>
>As a member of the ARIN leadership, is this the way you perceive
>that things work ? This is strong-arming and you are suggesting that
>Jon Postel (the IANA) could use his position as a U.S. Government
>contractor to influence other companies like ARIN to do what he wants
>by controlling their "supply" of products.

Natrually, you misunderstood me.

I said that __IF__ ARIN could tell IANA to go to hell, __THEN__ IANA could
do the same to ARIN.

Alec

CC: Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>

###

From: Karen Rose
To: hersch
Date: 4/16/98 10:53am
Subject: IP-block fees, ARIN, and the GP Process -Forwarded -Forwarded

from last night and today
--Karen

###

--
Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin
http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly / All Lines K56Flex/DOV
| NEW! Corporate ISDN Prices dropped by up to 50%!
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###

From: Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.net>
To: Kim Hubbard <kimh@arin.net>
Date: 4/14/98 7:38pm
Subject: Re: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

On Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 06:03:30PM -0400, Kim Hubbard wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 01:53:43PM -0400, Kim Hubbard wrote:
> > > >
> > > Jim,
> > >
> > > As you know, 24/8 is reserved for *all* cable allocations not just @Home.
> > >
> > > And yes, the IANA approved the initial allocation to @Home but the
> > > InterNIC did review the application and made the actual allocation.
> > >
> > > @Home has worked very hard to efficiently utilize their address space
> > > as well as working with other cable companies to share their knowledge
> > > of efficient utilization.
> > >
> > > Kim
> >
> > You're lying through omission again Kim.
>
> No Karl, I'm not lying. Jim implied that @Home bypassed InterNIC and
> went directly to IANA and IANA made the actual allocation. When in fact,
> they first came to the InterNIC. They followed the normal procedures
> and appealed to the IANA whereupon the IANA approved an allocation for
> an amount of space that was justified. The InterNIC then made the allocation.
>
> Kim

You just confirmed precisely what I and Jim have been saying Kim.

Thank you for "clarifying" it; your original statement was misleading, as
you didn't bother to point out that @HOME "jumped" the Internic when it
*could not justify the allocation to you*, and that Postel then did it
ANYWAY, against your judgement.

This is PRECISELY what we've been talking about.

CC: NTIADC40.NTIAHQ40(BBURR),NTIADC40.SMTP40("JimFlemi...

###

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Date: 4/14/98 7:46pm
Subject: RE: ARIN Groupies

On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 6:35 PM, Roeland M.J. Meyer[SMTP:rmeyer@mhsc.com] wrote:
<snip>
@
@I hadn't realized that ARIN requires Business plans for IP allocation
@justification. Where is the technical need for this, or in the parlance of
@the DOD "What's their need-to-know"?
@

Roeland,

I have been saying this for years. The people behind ARIN
seem to thrive on pawing through as much inside information
as they can get and yet there does not seem to be any need
for it. Furthermore, other people in the Internet business seem
to thrive on discussing this information and they flock to all of
the conferences to hear the latest gossip.

One of the ARIN Board members once told me that the whole
enterprise is in desperate need of adult supervision. Some
companies are apparently quite disturbed by the entire affair.
I believe that SAIC and NSI saw the writing on the wall and
wisely put the whole thing at arm's length.

What I mostly see from ARIN advocates are URLs pointed
to pictures where their leaders are demonstrating how to
snort beer through their nose. Now there is a useful talent !

At this point I think that the U.S. Government needs to step
in and kill several birds with the same stone.

1. Get ARIN under control
2. Get IANA Inc. moving
3. Help set a better example for the rest of the world...

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "'Alec H. Peterson'" <ahp@hilander.com>

###

From: Gordon Cook <cook@cookreport.com>
To: NTIADC40.SMTP40("domain-policy@open-rsc.org")
Date: 4/14/98 8:12pm
Subject: Re: IP-block fees, ARIN, and the GP Process

Steve Page infected by Fleming *LIES* wrote:

>4/14/98
>
>Jim Fleming wrote:
>
>>A large revenue increase during the middle of the U.S. Government's
>>Green Paper IANA Inc. planning process might not be what a group like ARIN
>>would want. This might draw the attention of the various U.S. Government
>>officials to the fact that ARIN now has billions of dollars in assets that
>>have been handed to them tax free and with apparently no strings attached.
>
> Based upon Mr. Bode's recent legal success, in overturning similar
>actions by the NSF, as both a citizen of the U.S. and an interested
>observer in "the process" at hand, it would seem to me that the dilution of
>intellectual property assets into the hands of a few insiders, without
>specific Congressional scrutiny would constitute a breach of fiduciary duty
>by the responsible authorities who presumably are acting in the interest of
>the Citizens of the United States.
> In the case of ARIN cited above, IP numbers which are THE key
>integrated functional components critical to the Internet's mapping system
>(where names and numbers correlate or "resolve") was developed and paid for
>by funding from the U.S. government over time (DARPANET/NSFNET/INTERNET).
>This is exactly the same giveaway as:
>
>1) the U.S. INS giving away the control of U.S. borders to a private
>corporation and allowing them to charge whatever fee they want, whatever
>they could get away with...
>2) U.S. Dept of Interior giving away rights to commercially develop all of
>the nations public beaches to a private corporation, with no oversight from
>Congress, so that it can charge developers whatever they can get away
>with...
>3) U.S. Dept of Interior giving away control of U.S. Parks to a private
>corporation allowing them to charge whatever fee they want, and use
>whatever criteria they choose to determine who they will allow into the
>park...
>
Steve, for one thing I wonder what relevence Flemings slander regarding
ARIN and IP numbers has to the subject of this list?

Please - your comments up to this point haven't been bad, but don't buy the
filth & disinformation that flows Flemings keyboard. The US gov't didn't
give away a GD thing with ARIN and IP number administration. I have seen
comments in this torrent today that made this point and I am dissapointed
to see you ignoring them.

FLEMING THE TYPHOID SALLY (OR WAS IT MARY?) OF THE INFO HIGHWAY..... DONT
BECOME INFECTED!
***************************************************************************
The COOK Report on Internet New Special Report: Building Internet
431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618 USA Infrastructure ($395) available. See
(609) 882-2572 (phone & fax) http://www.cookreport.com/building.html
cook@cookreport.com Index to 6 years of COOK Report, how to
subscribe, exec summaries, special reports, gloss at http://www.cookreport.com
***************************************************************************

CC: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>

###

From: steve <usdh@mail.ccnet.com>
To: NTIADC40.SMTP40("owner-naipr@arin.net")
Date: 4/14/98 9:00pm
Subject: RE: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

4/14/98

Jim Fleming wrote:

>What the U.S. Government needs to evaluate is what the
>impact is of having the U.S. Government handing out billions
>of dollars in assets with no bid process and no oversight.
>Obviously, companies that obtain these huge assets prosper
>but other companies are denied access.

The process of dilution or bleeding of assets from the balance
sheet of the U.S. has been one more significant step toward chipping away
and undermining of the Constitution which affects all U.S. citizens, while
building Internet infrastructure on unsteady ground with no supporting
framework or design.

>Many people feel that this will all go away when the NSI
>InterNIC contract ends. I claim that the sizzle of domain
>names may disappear but the steak will now appear. That
>is the IP addresses and the other assets that the IANA Inc.
>will control. Unfortunately, some companies feel that they
>have already been given ownership of these assets. If they
>have, it was via the U.S. Government and that means that
>everything on the IANA's plate (past and present) needs to
>be investigated.
>
>-
>Jim Fleming
>Unir Corporation
>IBC, Tortola, BVI

It's very tough to smoothly undo bad policy, especially when it
affects an emerging marketplace in which huge valuations are being given by
Wall Street, without causing unforeseen ripple effects. The ripple effect
can spread far and wide. It's best to do things right and it is not too
late 1) recognize problem(s) to be solved and the factors which will
affect the outcome (a hugely valuable asset has been created under U.S. law
by the U.S. government) 2) design a solution with a foundation in
principles which are in harmony with the observable physical world
recognizing that protecting freedoms and rights is the highest goal (assets
owned by the People must be legally protected) 3) prototype it similar to
other solutions which have been created for similar problems (Presidio
Trust) 4) test it operationally 5) roll-it out systemwide 6) make
improvements if needed.

Stephen J. Page
MBA OD BSc
George C. Marshall award winner, presented at VMI, 1979

Incorporator,
dot Registry, an Industry Association, www.????.????(under contruction)
"Helping build administration cooperation for facilitating marketplace
competition."

Internet .A-.Z Name Registries, www.A-Z-REGISTRY.COM (under revision)
email: usdh@ccnet.com Tel: 925-454-8624 f: 925-484-0448

CC: Tony Rutkowski <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###

From: steve <usdh@mail.ccnet.com>
To: NTIADC40.SMTP40("owner-naipr@arin.net")
Date: 4/14/98 9:00pm
Subject: Re: Play Ball !!

4/14/98

Jim wrote:
<snip>
>
>Much of this stems from the fact that there are no alternative sources of
>Internet resources.

The abuse to which Jim refers is exactly why the U.S. government
has an Antitrust division of the DOJ, so that situations with "no
alternative sources" do not harm individuals or small businesses, which are
recognized as being worthy of special protections. I am confident that the
truth will come out, over time. In the meantime, the inertia of the
hierarchical bureaucratic structure with its "Is it in your job
description?" and "Follow the chain of command" mentality seems to prevent
thinking people from exercising any proactive leadership to peel away the
veils hiding activity which is clearly at odds with the stated principles
of the Constitution.

You are basically in the information business and in
>order to do business you have to provide people with information who in
>my opinion have no need for that information and have little regard for how
>they use that information. They try to operate above the law. It does not
>work because they do not follow the same government guidelines that
>the IRS, SEC and other agencies have to follow. Also, because it is such
>a small tight community, your information gets passed around and they
>use it to further their cause. They completely disregard their roles as
>contractors for the U.S. Government.
>-
>Jim Fleming
>Unir Corporation
>IBC, Tortola, BVI

When the operator is "asleep at the switch", the thieves can steal
the resources and when he awakens, he may never know what has occurred.

Supporting the Constitution of the U.S.,

Stephen J. Page
MBA OD BSc
George C. Marshall Award Winner, presented at VMI, 1979

Incorporator,
dot Registry, an Industry Association, www.????.????(under contruction)
"Helping build administration cooperation for facilitating marketplace
competition."

Internet .A-.Z Name Registries, www.A-Z-REGISTRY.COM (under revision)
email: usdh@ccnet.com Tel: 925-454-8624 Fax: 925-484-0448

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###

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From: usdh@mail.ccnet.com (steve)
Subject: Re: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off
Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>,
"'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
"'Don Mitchell'" <dmitchel@NSF.GOV>,
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###

From: Chad Skidmore <cskidmor@nwnexus.com>
To: 'Jim Fleming' <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Date: 4/14/98 10:19pm
Subject: RE: Play Ball !!

Jim, are you a writer on the X-Files, abused as a child, or what?

---------------------------------------------

Chad Skidmore
Director of Network Engineering
Northwest Nexus, Inc.
http://www.nwnexus.com
1-888-NWNEXUS

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Fleming [mailto:JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 12:25 PM
> To: Kim Hubbard
> Cc: amr@CHAOS.COM; antitrust@usdoj.gov; BBURR@ntia.doc.gov;
> cjw@corp.home.net; Ira Magaziner
> JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net; jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com; karl@MCS.NET;
> kimh@arin.net; naipr@arin.net; postel@ISI.EDU
> Subject: Play Ball !!
>
>
> On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 8:59 AM, Doug
> Davis[SMTP:dougd@mail.airmail.net] wrote:
> @> We do not disclose information on requests as you well know.
> @
> @Out of curiosity, and from the perspective of a little ISP
> @who has to struggle through the mounds of roadblocks for
> @every little /24 that we need, I would ask you why not?
> @
>
> Firstly, you have to understand that they practice
> "selective" disclosure.
>
> If the so-called Internet Community (or party-line) feels
> that an allocation
> is OK, then people high-five the topic. Everyone plays ball
> and has a good
> time flying around the world to parties where the "right"
> people enjoy the
> allocations they have obtained. Companies then hire these
> "right" people
> to help them grease the skids for more allocations. It all
> runs very smoothly
> when everyone is playing ball and making sure that ARIN is
> taken care of
> politically and financially.
>
> If on the other hand, you decide that you do not want to be
> subjected to
> the party-line and be co-opted, then you will be selectively
> delayed in the
> process of obtaining resources. In short, you will get the
> old fashioned
> "run around". If you have invested a lot of money, you can
> not afford this
> so you have little choice but to fall in line and play ball.
> Unfortunately,
> the day will come when you end up going to head to head with another
> ISP for a contract. When that occurs, you want to make sure that the
> InterNIC "agents" do not start spreading misinformation. If
> they do then
> you will find that your competition will gladly pick it up
> and use it to close
> the deal against you.
>
> Much of this stems from the fact that there are no
> alternative sources of
> Internet resources. You are basically in the information
> business and in
> order to do business you have to provide people with
> information who in
> my opinion have no need for that information and have little
> regard for how
> they use that information. They try to operate above the law.
> It does not
> work because they do not follow the same government guidelines that
> the IRS, SEC and other agencies have to follow. Also, because
> it is such
> a small tight community, your information gets passed around and they
> use it to further their cause. They completely disregard
> their roles as
> contractors for the U.S. Government.
> -
> Jim Fleming
> Unir Corporation
> IBC, Tortola, BVI
>

CC: NTIADC40.NTIAHQ40(BBURR),NTIADC40.SMTP40("kimh@ari...

From: steve <usdh@mail.ccnet.com>
To: NTIADC40.SMTP40("domain-policy@open-rsc.org")
Date: 4/14/98 10:23pm
Subject: Re: IP-block fees, ARIN, and the GP Process

4/14/98

Gordon Cook writes:

>Steve Page infected by Fleming *LIES* wrote (below):

Steve:

The process of bits and bytes of energy flowing across the net from
various sources and into onto my retina where they are transmitted
electrochemically through my brain to mix with my stored experiential
information over time to create an ever increasing level of knowledge in
the quest for truth and enlightenment (breath), can can viewed as an
"infection" of sorts.
Mr. Cook, all points of view infect my mind when I read because it
is open and seeking the truth, just as all points of view infect you (I
presume that yours is open and seeking the truth as well), although your
system's defenses (antibodies) might kill some of the ideas that my
system's antibodies allow to live and populate within my body.
Unfortunately, I feel that your proclamation of my being "infected"
is similar to the case of Ms. Hubbard's disclosure of sensitive information
regarding Mr. Fleming's personal business to the entire community, which he
likened to providing "AIDS" information in a crowded waiting room for all
"the community" to hear. Although your use of the term "infection" is less
hurtful to me because we all read from the same interface before us which
provides us each with a channel for exchanging of ideas and information, so
we are free to draw conclusions.
What I have read regarding ARIN makes me as a citizen concerned
that the process has not evolved with the support of the Constitutional
framework under which protections of individuals' rights and freedoms flow.
Mr. Fleming is, no more, no less, a channel of information, like you,
which we are each free to allow to resonate within our experience,
hopefully achieving more clarity and truth.

Steve had written:
>>4/14/98
>>
>>Jim Fleming wrote:
>>
>>>A large revenue increase during the middle of the U.S. Government's
>>>Green Paper IANA Inc. planning process might not be what a group like ARIN
>>>would want. This might draw the attention of the various U.S. Government
>>>officials to the fact that ARIN now has billions of dollars in assets that
>>>have been handed to them tax free and with apparently no strings attached.
>>
>> Based upon Mr. Bode's recent legal success, in overturning similar
>>actions by the NSF, as both a citizen of the U.S. and an interested
>>observer in "the process" at hand, it would seem to me that the dilution of
>>intellectual property assets into the hands of a few insiders, without
>>specific Congressional scrutiny would constitute a breach of fiduciary duty
>>by the responsible authorities who presumably are acting in the interest of
>>the Citizens of the United States.
>> In the case of ARIN cited above, IP numbers which are THE key
>>integrated functional components critical to the Internet's mapping system
>>(where names and numbers correlate or "resolve") was developed and paid for
>>by funding from the U.S. government over time (DARPANET/NSFNET/INTERNET).
>>This is exactly the same giveaway as:
>>
>>1) the U.S. INS giving away the control of U.S. borders to a private
>>corporation and allowing them to charge whatever fee they want, whatever
>>they could get away with...
>>2) U.S. Dept of Interior giving away rights to commercially develop all of
>>the nations public beaches to a private corporation, with no oversight from
>>Congress, so that it can charge developers whatever they can get away
>>with...
>>3) U.S. Dept of Interior giving away control of U.S. Parks to a private
>>corporation allowing them to charge whatever fee they want, and use
>>whatever criteria they choose to determine who they will allow into the
>>park...
>Steve, for one thing I wonder what relevence Flemings slander regarding
>ARIN and IP numbers has to the subject of this list?

My presumption is that the any list like this is designed to
stimulate discussions which will hopefully lead to greater knowledge, so
that the community can be better educated. I may be way off, though. If
so, sorry for missing the real point whatever it is.

>Please - your comments up to this point haven't been bad, but don't buy the
>filth & disinformation that flows Flemings keyboard.

I'm trying to add something which people can reflect on and
say...he's got a point, or maybe I've never looked at it that way.

The US gov't didn't
>give away a GD thing with ARIN and IP number administration. I have seen
>comments in this torrent today that made this point and I am dissapointed
>to see you ignoring them.

I'm not trying to ignore any points, I try to peel away the veil of
all persons' language which is sometimes used deceptively, sometimes
playfully, sometimes tyrannically, sometimes communistically, sometimes
free marketedly, to help achieve clarity for myself first, while helping
others do the same. Individual experiences help shape our mental state and
therefore policy making and ultimately our actions. We cannot ignore the
experiences of those who struggled with these same issues before us
(Constitutional framers) because they recognized that authority without
protections is a dangerous thing. Somebody else has to recognize this too,
I hope, otherwise we are destined to repeat many mistakes again and again
over time.

Trying to support the Constitution of the U.S.,

Stephen J. Page
MBA OD BSc
George C. Marshall Award Winner, presented at VMI, 1979

Incorporator,
dot Registry, an Industry Association, www.????.????(under contruction)
"Helping build administration cooperation for facilitating marketplace
competition."

Internet .A-.Z Name Registries, www.A-Z-REGISTRY.COM (under revision)
email: usdh@ccnet.com Tel: 925-454-8624 Fax: 925-484-0448

P.S.

Mr. Cook, what purpose does the following serve?:

Gordon Cook writes:
>FLEMING THE TYPHOID SALLY (OR WAS IT MARY?) OF THE INFO HIGHWAY..... DONT
>BECOME INFECTED!

Steve: it must be part of the entertainment value of the Report. I respect
that. Life's to short to live boringly. Keep spicing it up.

CC: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>

###

From: Chad Skidmore <cskidmor@nwnexus.com>
To: 'Jim Fleming' <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Date: 4/14/98 10:28pm
Subject: RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Fleming [mailto:JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 1:41 PM
> To: 'Alec H. Peterson'; Karl Denninger
>
> On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 3:27 PM, Alec H.
> Peterson[SMTP:ahp@hilander.com] <snip>
> @
> @I have yet to see where ARIN/InterNIC screwed up on this one.
> @
> @Alec
> @
>
> Alec,
>
> The point is not whether ARIN/InterNIC screwed up or not.
>
> The point is that no matter what the evidence there will be
> those people that NEVER see a problem and those people
> that do see problems and would like to address them and
> fix them so that MORE people can enjoy the Internet.
>
<SNIP>

Then there are those people that will ALWAYS see a problem . . . no
matter what.

---------------------------------------------
Chad Skidmore
Director of Network Engineering
Northwest Nexus, Inc.
http://www.nwnexus.com
1-888-NWNEXUS

CC: Kim Hubbard <kimh@arin.net>

###

From: Chad Skidmore <cskidmor@nwnexus.com>
To: 'Jim Fleming' <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Date: 4/14/98 10:36pm
Subject: RE: What Does ARIN Really Need to Know and Why ?

And how long do you think it would take to get those affidavits?

---------------------------------------------
Chad Skidmore
Director of Network Engineering
Northwest Nexus, Inc.
http://www.nwnexus.com
1-888-NWNEXUS

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Fleming [mailto:JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 2:45 PM
> To: 'Kim Hubbard'
> Cc: amr@CHAOS.COM; antitrust@usdoj.gov; BBURR@ntia.doc.gov;
> cjw@corp.home.net; Ira Magaziner
> JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net; jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com; karl@MCS.NET;
> naipr@arin.net; postel@ISI.EDU
> Subject: What Does ARIN Really Need to Know and Why ?
>
>
> On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 12:41 PM, Kim
> Hubbard[SMTP:kimh@arin.net] wrote:
> @>
> @No Jim, I was stating that I assume you, like everyone else,
> would not
> @want their business plans which in most cases is what is used to
> @justify address space, made public.
> @
>
> I do not think that business plans should be required
> to justify address space allocation. I do not believe there
> is anyone at ARIN qualified to evaluate business plans.
> Besides, that is a subjective process and favors allocations
> to companies that prepare boilerplate which just drives up
> the cost of the process and provides not real value.
>
> Instead, I think that allocations should be based on hard facts
> presented in simple, objective, application form. For example,
> for a new ISP they can provide two signed affidavits from
> upstream providers that are going to supply at least DS1
> connectivity. These affidavits can state that the upstream
> providers are willing to provide routing, etc. A clerk can be
> trained to make sure all of the forms are filled in and should
> be able to approve such an application in 10 minutes.
>
> -
> Jim Fleming
> Unir Corporation
> IBC, Tortola, BVI
>

CC: NTIADC40.NTIAHQ40(BBURR),NTIADC40.SMTP40("amr@CHAO...

###

From: Chad Skidmore <cskidmor@nwnexus.com>
To: "'cjw@corp.home.net'" <cjw@corp.home.net>
Date: 4/14/98 10:46pm
Subject: RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cjw@corp.home.net [mailto:cjw@corp.home.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 4:05 PM
> To: Jeff Williams
> Cc: Alec H. Peterson; Karl Denninger; Kim Hubbard; Jim Fleming;
>
> For the BAZILLIONTH TIME @HOME DOES ***NOT*** have a /8. Get
> your facts
> straight.

Exactly, if some of the clueless here would simply execute:

whois -h whois.arin.net 24.0.0.0

at the nearest unix prompt then they would see that there are several
companies that have received allocations out of the 24.0.0.0/8 block!

---------------------------------------------
Chad Skidmore
Director of Network Engineering
Northwest Nexus, Inc.
http://www.nwnexus.com
1-888-NWNEXUS

CC: "Alec H. Peterson" <ahp@hilander.com>

###

From: Gordon Cook <cook@cookreport.com>
To: NTIADC40.SMTP40("domain-policy@open-rsc.org")
Date: 4/14/98 11:04pm
Subject: Re: IP-block fees, ARIN, and the GP Process

>4/14/98
>
>Gordon Cook writes:
>
>>Steve Page infected by Fleming *LIES* wrote (below):
>
>Steve:
> The process of bits and bytes of energy flowing across the net from
>various sources and into onto my retina where they are transmitted
>electrochemically through my brain to mix with my stored experiential
>information over time to create an ever increasing level of knowledge in
>the quest for truth and enlightenment (breath), can can viewed as an
>"infection" of sorts.
[SNIP]

A reasonable response as far as it went.... I am guessing that Steve is a
new comer to Flemings ravings and that he does not have the context of the
past two years observation of Fleming in which to make a judgement of the
person. Fleming has a singular ability to speak lie after lie after lie
with more aplomb than anyone on the net. I won't go any further in my
attempt to caution Steve that just becuase Fleming says something he should
not assume it has any appreciable relation to reality. If anyone else
feels similarly I hope he or she will speak up. Time to return to lurking
mode.
***************************************************************************
The COOK Report on Internet New Special Report: Building Internet
431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618 USA Infrastructure ($395) available. See
(609) 882-2572 (phone & fax) http://www.cookreport.com/building.html
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CC: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>

###

From: Brian Reid <reid@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>
To: NTIADC40.SMTP40("domain-policy@open-rsc.org","reid...
Date: 4/14/98 11:17pm
Subject: Re: IP-block fees, ARIN, and the GP Process

Gordon,
If you are going to be on our domain-policy@open-rsc.org list, you
must follow the rules for polite discourse. I am fairly certain that
you have been sent a copy, and since it is your profession to read
things I am also fairly sure that you have read them.

If you disagree with something that somebody has said on our list, you
must find a way to state that disagreement without resorting to the
vehement and overly emotional language of the message to which I am
replying now.

Brian Reid
on-duty Sergeant-at-arms of open-rsc.org

CC: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>

###

From: Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.net>
To: Chad Skidmore <cskidmor@nwnexus.com>
Date: 4/14/98 11:21pm
Subject: Re: What Does ARIN Really Need to Know and Why ?

15 minutes if you were an ISP connected to us and requested one.

Assuming, of course, that you're not lying.

CC: "'Jim Fleming'" <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>

###

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'cjw@corp.home.net'" <cjw@corp.home.net>
Date: 4/14/98 11:34pm
Subject: The Wonderful World of ARIN

On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 9:46 PM, Chad Skidmore[SMTP:cskidmor@nwnexus.com] wrote:
@> -----Original Message-----
@> From: cjw@corp.home.net [mailto:cjw@corp.home.net]
@> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 4:05 PM
@> To: Jeff Williams
@> Cc: Alec H. Peterson; Karl Denninger; Kim Hubbard; Jim Fleming;
@>
@> For the BAZILLIONTH TIME @HOME DOES ***NOT*** have a /8. Get
@> your facts
@> straight.
@
@Exactly, if some of the clueless here would simply execute:
@
@whois -h whois.arin.net 24.0.0.0
@
@at the nearest unix prompt then they would see that there are several
@companies that have received allocations out of the 24.0.0.0/8 block!
@

No one said that @Home is sitting on the block, as with other companies.
Of course there are other companies obtaining space there. That is the idea.
That is partly how @Home has developed market share and value. Why do
you think that @Home's stock carried a high multiple ? There is money to
be made selling IPv4 addresses and companies are making it. Is that a surprise ?

Now, back to ARIN...

When ARIN was "sold" to the Internet community there were many claims
about how wonderful industry self-regulation is and how everyone would
benefit from having this IP registry disjoint from domain names. People
made claims about how the public trust would be preserved and how noble
the ARIN cause was. There was talk about how wonderful life would be
with IP allocations out of the hands of the U.S. Government.

It seems to me that ARIN is just another example of a small group of
people taking (or borrowing) U.S. Government assets to develop their
own sand box complete with financial rewards and other perks all provided
by a community which is supposed to sit around and nod approval because
some of the good ol' boys decided this is a good thing. That community
is supposed to send large checks to finance the operation which apparently
has 4 or 5 times as many people as one would have expected for a
company with such a narrow task and an expressed objective of being
a low-cost alternative to a U.S. Government solution.

Can anyone explain why this is all such a wonderful thing and where
society gets the huge benefits that people claimed ? Also, if this is
such a great thing then can someone explain why 6 or 8 more ARINs
can not be created to expand this wonderful world to other areas of
North America and the Caribbean ? Can someone provide the application
and documentation that ARIN submitted to the IANA and/or the U.S.
Government to obtain their "right" to create the wonderful world of ARIN ?

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "Alec H. Peterson" <ahp@hilander.com>

###

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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:18:07 -0400
To: domain-policy@open-rsc.org
From: Gordon Cook <cook@cookreport.com>
Subject: Re: IP-block fees, ARIN, and the GP Process
Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>,
"'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>,
"'Don Mitchell'" <dmitchel@NSF.GOV>,
Ira Magaziner
reid@hyfrydol.reid.org

###

From: Brian Reid <reid@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>
To: Gordon Cook <cook@cookreport.com>
Date: 4/15/98 1:02am
Subject: Re: IP-block fees, ARIN, and the GP Process

Gordon,
In my work with the Episcopal church I regularly run across people
who are verbal and verbose but whom I judge to be ineducable. I think
churches tend to attract more people who are judged by others to be nut
cases.

What I have learned is that if the person is genuinely wrong, and
puts this wrongness in writing, that others will come to judge the
offender the same way that I do.

The best example of this to which I can draw your attention is Ben
Phelps, who runs www.godhatesfags.com. I know many religious folk who
would like to argue with him, but the most effective technique is to
pretend that he does not exist.

If I have a judgment of Jim Fleming it is not something that I
would divulge in public. But if I wish to advise someone like Steve
Page not to engage with Jim Fleming, I am sure I can do it without
losing my temper, and I am sure you can do it too. If Jim Fleming is as
wrong as you say he is, then he will discredit himself the same way
that Ben Phelps has discredited himself. If he is not as wrong as you
say he is, then you will only injure yourself by engaging him in public.

If you win a fight with a tar baby, you are still covered with tar.
Keep walking.

Brian Reid
still the on-duty Sergeant at Arms of this list

CC: "'Tony Rutkowski'" <amr@chaos.com>

###

From: "Roeland M.J. Meyer" <rmeyer@mhsc.com>
To: Chad Skidmore <cskidmor@nwnexus.com>
Date: 4/15/98 1:03am
Subject: RE: What Does ARIN Really Need to Know and Why ?

At 19:36 4/14/98 -0700, Chad Skidmore wrote:
>And how long do you think it would take to get those affidavits?

I can get one from NetCom in about the time it take to get to my files.
It's called a contract to provide services. I will have another from
DSLnetworks by the end of this week.

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jim Fleming [mailto:JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 2:45 PM
>> To: 'Kim Hubbard'
>> Cc: amr@CHAOS.COM; antitrust@usdoj.gov; BBURR@ntia.doc.gov;
>> cjw@corp.home.net; Ira Magaziner
>> JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net; jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com; karl@MCS.NET;
>> naipr@arin.net; postel@ISI.EDU
>> Subject: What Does ARIN Really Need to Know and Why ?
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 12:41 PM, Kim
>> Hubbard[SMTP:kimh@arin.net] wrote:
>> @>
>> @No Jim, I was stating that I assume you, like everyone else,
>> would not
>> @want their business plans which in most cases is what is used to
>> @justify address space, made public.
>> @
>>
>> I do not think that business plans should be required
>> to justify address space allocation. I do not believe there
>> is anyone at ARIN qualified to evaluate business plans.
>> Besides, that is a subjective process and favors allocations
>> to companies that prepare boilerplate which just drives up
>> the cost of the process and provides not real value.
>>
>> Instead, I think that allocations should be based on hard facts
>> presented in simple, objective, application form. For example,
>> for a new ISP they can provide two signed affidavits from
>> upstream providers that are going to supply at least DS1
>> connectivity. These affidavits can state that the upstream
>> providers are willing to provide routing, etc. A clerk can be
>> trained to make sure all of the forms are filled in and should
>> be able to approve such an application in 10 minutes.
>>
>> -
>> Jim Fleming
>> Unir Corporation
>> IBC, Tortola, BVI
>>
>
___________________________________________________
Roeland M.J. Meyer, ISOC (InterNIC RM993)
e-mail: <mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com>mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com
Personal web pages: <http://www.mhsc.com/~rmeyer>http://www.mhsc.com/~rmeyer
Company web-site: <http://www.mhsc.com/>http://www.mhsc.com/
___________________________________________
SecureMail from MHSC.NET is coming soon!

CC: "'Jim Fleming'" <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>

###

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: Chad Skidmore <cskidmor@nwnexus.com>
Date: 4/15/98 1:08am
Subject: RE: What Does ARIN Really Need to Know and Why ?

On Wednesday, April 15, 1998 12:03 AM, Roeland M.J. Meyer[SMTP:rmeyer@mhsc.com] wrote:

@At 19:36 4/14/98 -0700, Chad Skidmore wrote:
@>And how long do you think it would take to get those affidavits?
@
@I can get one from NetCom in about the time it take to get to my files.
@It's called a contract to provide services. I will have another from
@DSLnetworks by the end of this week.
@

Yes, and just because ARIN does not operate with an open
process (at the moment) this should not stop people from
posting their allocation requests and proof to the ARIN mailing
list(s). This will help to time-stamp the requests and to make
it clear to the various U.S. Government officials how long it takes
for ARIN to process an application.

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###

From: "Roeland M.J. Meyer" <rmeyer@mhsc.com>
To: Michael Dillon <michael@memra.com>
Date: 4/15/98 1:36am
Subject: Re: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer rip-off

At 22:22 4/14/98 -0700, Michael Dillon wrote:
>On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Alec H. Peterson wrote:
>
>> At 03:27 PM 4/14/98 , Roeland M.J. Meyer wrote:
>> >
>> >Also, it would be nice to have the equivalent of a whois, for IP-blocks.
>> >That is, given an IP addr, who owns it?
>>
>> What's wrong with whois.arin.net?
>
>To be more specific, most whois clients will do lookups like so:
>
>whois -h whois.arin.net 204.204.204
>
>and there are some that do it like so
>
>whois 204.204.204@whois.arin.net

Thank you, Caldera Linux likes this way best.

>If you come across a block delegated to RIPE or APNIC you can usually get
>more detail on who has that block by making the same query to
>whois.ripe.net or whois.apnic.net

___________________________________________________
Roeland M.J. Meyer, ISOC (InterNIC RM993)
e-mail: <mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com>mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com
Personal web pages: <http://www.mhsc.com/~rmeyer>http://www.mhsc.com/~rmeyer
Company web-site: <http://www.mhsc.com/>http://www.mhsc.com/
___________________________________________
SecureMail from MHSC.NET is coming soon!

CC: NTIADC40.NTIAHQ40(BBURR),NTIADC40.SMTP40("naipr@ar...

###

From: Einar Stefferud <Stef@nma.com>
To: Einar Stefferud <stef@nma.com>
Date: 4/15/98 1:50am
Subject: Re: IP-block fees, ARIN, and the GP Process

Steve, Gordon, et al -- I am going off list to point out that this
ARIN topic is entirely outside the purview of our Open-RSC scope of
interest, and thus such discussions belong elsewhere.

Surely there is some other appropriate forum.

Our OPEN-RSC plate is already full with DNS ROOT Coordination issues,
and we must be very careful to not overload our OPEN-RSC Domain-Policy
mailing list with extraneious topics.

Thank you all for accomodating the needs of OPEN-RSC. Cheers...\Stef

From your message Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:12:36 -0400:
}
}Steve Page infected by Fleming *LIES* wrote:
}
}>4/14/98
}>
}>Jim Fleming wrote:
}>
}>>A large revenue increase during the middle of the U.S. Government's
}>>Green Paper IANA Inc. planning process might not be what a group like ARIN
}>>would want. This might draw the attention of the various U.S. Government
}>>officials to the fact that ARIN now has billions of dollars in assets that
}>>have been handed to them tax free and with apparently no strings attached.
}>
}> Based upon Mr. Bode's recent legal success, in overturning similar
}>actions by the NSF, as both a citizen of the U.S. and an interested
}>observer in "the process" at hand, it would seem to me that the dilution of
}>intellectual property assets into the hands of a few insiders, without
}>specific Congressional scrutiny would constitute a breach of fiduciary duty
}>by the responsible authorities who presumably are acting in the interest of
}>the Citizens of the United States.
}> In the case of ARIN cited above, IP numbers which are THE key
}>integrated functional components critical to the Internet's mapping system
}>(where names and numbers correlate or "resolve") was developed and paid for
}>by funding from the U.S. government over time (DARPANET/NSFNET/INTERNET).
}>This is exactly the same giveaway as:
}>
}>1) the U.S. INS giving away the control of U.S. borders to a private
}>corporation and allowing them to charge whatever fee they want, whatever
}>they could get away with...
}>2) U.S. Dept of Interior giving away rights to commercially develop all of
}>the nations public beaches to a private corporation, with no oversight from
}>Congress, so that it can charge developers whatever they can get away
}>with...
}>3) U.S. Dept of Interior giving away control of U.S. Parks to a private
}>corporation allowing them to charge whatever fee they want, and use
}>whatever criteria they choose to determine who they will allow into the
}>park...
}>
}
}
}Steve, for one thing I wonder what relevence Flemings slander regarding
}ARIN and IP numbers has to the subject of this list?
}
}Please - your comments up to this point haven't been bad, but don't buy the
}filth & disinformation that flows Flemings keyboard. The US gov't didn't
}give away a GD thing with ARIN and IP number administration. I have seen
}comments in this torrent today that made this point and I am dissapointed
}to see you ignoring them.
}
}FLEMING THE TYPHOID SALLY (OR WAS IT MARY?) OF THE INFO HIGHWAY..... DONT
}BECOME INFECTED!
}***************************************************************************
}The COOK Report on Internet New Special Report: Building Internet
}431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618 USA Infrastructure ($395) available. See
}(609) 882-2572 (phone & fax) http://www.cookreport.com/building.html
}cook@cookreport.com Index to 6 years of COOK Report, how to
}subscribe, exec summaries, special reports, gloss at http://www.cookreport.com
}***************************************************************************

CC: Tony Rutkowski <amr@chaos.com>

###

From: Einar Stefferud <Stef@nma.com>
To: Steve Page <usdh@mail.ccnet.com>
Date: 4/15/98 1:54am
Subject: Re: IP-block fees, ARIN, and the GP Process

Steve, Gordon, et al -- I am going off list to point out that this
ARIN topic is entirely outside the purview of our Open-RSC scope of
interest, and thus such discussions belong elsewhere.

Surely there is some other appropriate forum.

Our OPEN-RSC plate is already full with DNS ROOT Coordination issues,
and we must be very careful to not overload our OPEN-RSC Domain-Policy
mailing list with extraneious topics.

Thank you all for accomodating the needs of OPEN-RSC. Cheers...\Stef

From your message Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:12:36 -0400:
}
}Steve Page infected by Fleming *LIES* wrote:
}
}>4/14/98
}>
}>Jim Fleming wrote:
}>
}>>A large revenue increase during the middle of the U.S. Government's
}>>Green Paper IANA Inc. planning process might not be what a group like ARIN
}>>would want. This might draw the attention of the various U.S. Government
}>>officials to the fact that ARIN now has billions of dollars in assets that
}>>have been handed to them tax free and with apparently no strings attached.
}>
}> Based upon Mr. Bode's recent legal success, in overturning similar
}>actions by the NSF, as both a citizen of the U.S. and an interested
}>observer in "the process" at hand, it would seem to me that the dilution of
}>intellectual property assets into the hands of a few insiders, without
}>specific Congressional scrutiny would constitute a breach of fiduciary duty
}>by the responsible authorities who presumably are acting in the interest of
}>the Citizens of the United States.
}> In the case of ARIN cited above, IP numbers which are THE key
}>integrated functional components critical to the Internet's mapping system
}>(where names and numbers correlate or "resolve") was developed and paid for
}>by funding from the U.S. government over time (DARPANET/NSFNET/INTERNET).
}>This is exactly the same giveaway as:
}>
}>1) the U.S. INS giving away the control of U.S. borders to a private
}>corporation and allowing them to charge whatever fee they want, whatever
}>they could get away with...
}>2) U.S. Dept of Interior giving away rights to commercially develop all of
}>the nations public beaches to a private corporation, with no oversight from
}>Congress, so that it can charge developers whatever they can get away
}>with...
}>3) U.S. Dept of Interior giving away control of U.S. Parks to a private
}>corporation allowing them to charge whatever fee they want, and use
}>whatever criteria they choose to determine who they will allow into the
}>park...
}>
}
}
}Steve, for one thing I wonder what relevence Flemings slander regarding
}ARIN and IP numbers has to the subject of this list?
}
}Please - your comments up to this point haven't been bad, but don't buy the
}filth & disinformation that flows Flemings keyboard. The US gov't didn't
}give away a GD thing with ARIN and IP number administration. I have seen
}comments in this torrent today that made this point and I am dissapointed
}to see you ignoring them.
}
}FLEMING THE TYPHOID SALLY (OR WAS IT MARY?) OF THE INFO HIGHWAY..... DONT
}BECOME INFECTED!
}***************************************************************************
}The COOK Report on Internet New Special Report: Building Internet
}431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618 USA Infrastructure ($395) available. See
}(609) 882-2572 (phone & fax) http://www.cookreport.com/building.html
}cook@cookreport.com Index to 6 years of COOK Report, how to
}subscribe, exec summaries, special reports, gloss at http://www.cookreport.com
}***************************************************************************

CC: Tony Rutkowski <amr@chaos.com>

###

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: "'Bill Manning'" <bmanning@ISI.EDU>
Date: 4/15/98 1:52am
Subject: whois iana.com

On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 5:40 PM, Bill Manning[SMTP:bmanning@ISI.EDU] wrote:
<snip>
@
@See rwhois for more detail... :)
@
@--
@--bill
@

Bill,

Nice of you to drop in. How is Jon ?

What do you think of the idea of using ARIN as a corporate
structure for the IANA Inc. ?

Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA3-DOM)
4676 Admiralty Way
MDR, CA 90292
US

Domain Name: IANA.COM

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Manning, Bill (WM110) bmanning@ISI.EDU
310-322-8102

Record last updated on 18-Dec-96.
Record created on 29-Jul-96.
Database last updated on 14-Apr-98 03:43:25 EDT.

Domain servers in listed order:

NS.ISI.EDU 128.9.128.127
ORB.ISI.EDU 128.9.160.66

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" <BBURR@ntia.doc.gov>

###

From: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
To: Jim Fleming <JimFleming@doorstep.unety.net>
Date: 4/15/98 2:18am
Subject: RE: Calling Jimmy's bluff RE: FW: ARIN and Network Soultions: consumer

On Tuesday, April 14, 1998 5:53 PM, Michael Dillon[SMTP:michael@memra.com] wrote:
<snip>
@
@In the light of this exchange of questions, I find it extremely suspicious
@that you have not made any reply whatsoever to my suggestion that you, Jim
@Fleming, are being paid by the telco monopoly to act as an agent

:-) You do have quite an imagination Michael.
Maybe you can focus some of that on ARIN
and the IANA Inc. Time is running out.

What do you think about having ARIN provide
the corporate structure for the IANA Inc. ?
This could get things moving quickly and you
might reduce your exposure to all of the agents
that you seem to think are after you...

-
Jim Fleming
Unir Corporation
IBC, Tortola, BVI

CC: "amr@CHAOS.COM" <amr@CHAOS.COM>

###