7 (Whereupon, a short recess
8 was taken.)
9 ASSISTANT SECRETARY GALLAGHER: Well, there was
10 certainly a lot of vibrant discussion over the break. That's
11 good to see. We're now ready to start our second panel which
12 is going to focus on the appropriate role of government.
13 And before we start that I want to once again thank Joe
14 Watson for the great job he did comoderating that panel
15 with Dan Caprio and with Mark Skall.
16 It's a pleasure to work with both of them as
17 teammates as we look to advance the cause of technology in
18 growing our economy here at the Department of Commerce.
19 And we'll sit down and start this panel right
20 away. And we'll start with introductions. And why don't
21 we start with you, Jim, over here on the right. If you
22 could use the microphone.
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1 MR. BOUND: Good morning. My name is Jim Bound.
2 I'm here as chairman of the North American IPv6 Task Force
3 and I'm also the Chief Technology Officer at IPv6 Forum
4 and my part-time job is as a Hewlett-Packard fellow.
5 MS. KRAUS: I'm Marilyn Kraus and my full-time
6 job is in the office of the DOD CIO working on IPv6 policy
7 and transition planning.
8 ASSISTANT SECRETARY GALLAGHER: And all the vendors
9 are very interested in what you have to say.
10 MR. MARSHALL: I'm Preston Marshall from Defense
11 Advanced Research Project Agency, DARPA. I do a number of
12 wireless research programs.
13 ASSISTANT SECRETARY GALLAGHER: If I could just
14 pause for just a second on Preston. Preston has been another
15 friend of the Department for a long time and somebody who on
16 other panels and other fora mostly regarding these
17 wireless issues has been a real leader in helping the
18 United States develop spectrum policies that makes sense
19 looking forward with adaptive technologies.
20 And probably the key way he's done that is by
21 really cementing in the minds of policy makers what it's
22 all about and seeing that the importance of the goal that
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1 we strive for every day in spectrum policy. So thank you,
2 Preston, for coming.
3 DR. MAUGHAN: Douglas Maughan. I'm a Program
4 Manager in the Department of Homeland Security Science and
5 Technology Directorate running the cybersecurity R&D
6 programs.
7 ASSISTANT SECRETARY GALLAGHER: Vendor interest
8 there, too.
9 MR. SOKOLOWSKI: Gene Sokolowski from GSA's
10 federal technology service.
11 DR. SUMMERHILL: I'm Rick Summerhill with
12 Internet2. Internet2's a consortium of roughly 200 or so
13 research universities and my responsibilities are
14 primarily backbone research so we run an IPv6 backbone for
15 example.
16 MR. TANNER: My name's Ted Tanner and I'm an
17 architectural strategist in the Windows Technical Public
18 Policy Division.
19 ASSISTANT SECRETARY GALLAGHER: Welcome. And now
20 for those of you that don't know Rick is my former boss and a
21 great representative from the state of Washington who is
22 here today and we welcome here at the Department of
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1 Commerce.
2 MR. WHITE: Thank you, Mike. It's great to be
3 here and I knew I couldn't refuse when you invited me so I
4 appreciate that. I'm currently CEO of TechNet which is an
5 organization of about 200 CEOs of technology companies.
6 ASSISTANT SECRETARY GALLAGHER: Just to start the
7 questioning I was wondering if we could get some input
8 from those that have knowledge and authority within the
9 government what's the state of deployment of IPv6 in
10 software and hardware today?
11 How would we measure it, if you have suggested
12 measurements, and then also what those measurements are
13 today to the extent we know them. And Marilyn, since you
14 have the most experience in this, why don't we start with
15 you?
16 MS. KRAUS: And I'm probably the least able to
17 answer that question in the Department of Defense but let
18 me try to. Many of you know that a year ago, almost a
19 little over a year ago, DoD decided to, after much thought
20 and consideration, set a goal for itself of implementing
21 and transitioning to IPv6. And it set a goal date of
22 2008.
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1 And it also laid out some tasks because it
2 recognized that IPv6 was not here today in the form that
3 we, the Department of Defense, needed it to be and that
4 transition was going to be a difficult thing.
5 The Department of Defense is very complex with
6 lots of different stakeholders and lots of different
7 technical requirements. So it laid out the foundation of
8 what needed to be done in terms of transition planning, in
9 terms of testing and assessment.
10 And it also said that in order to be ready to
11 turn on IPv6 at the appropriate point that it was the
12 policy of the Department that we were going to start
13 buying products that were capable of operating in the
14 future world of IPv6 as well as continuing to be able to
15 operate in today's IPv4 world.
16 So we recognize that there was a lot of work to
17 be done and hopefully there was a lot of people out there
18 willing to work in that area besides us. We have spent
19 the last year in disseminating the word throughout DoD,
20 try to do at least the first level of transition planning.
21 We have established a transition office at the
22 Defense Information Systems Agency to coordinate efforts
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1 on a technical level amongst our service components and
2 other components.
3 Now, as part of that we have done some looking
4 at products. I think everyone has read some of the
5 reports in Moonv6 and I guess our considered opinion at
6 this point is that the core set of standards and products
7 are probably out there, probably is not going to meet all
8 the requirements of DoD but certainly when you're talking
9 about a fixed-space infrastructure it's largely there.
10 Certainly, there are very key parts of it that
11 are not there and the ones that we're going to be looking
12 to work very hard in the future years, things like
13 mobility and operations and tactical environment, security
14 both in the transition and in the end state and as
15 enabling a quality of service to provide the performance
16 that we really need.
17 IPv6 comes as part of an overall major
18 transformation in Department of Defense one of which is
19 focused on netting our forces. So IPv6 is not the only
20 story but it's a critical enabler as far as we are
21 concerned.
22 So we have started to follow the standards,
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1 hopefully participate in the standards bodies. We're
2 starting to understand from our components where our
3 current capabilities are, when things are going to be
4 technology refreshed or replaced by replacement systems.
5 But again, the big hole besides the ones I
6 talked about is and the one we're probably more concerned
7 with right now is lack of applications. And we've been
8 talking to our vendors through the Enterprise Software
9 Initiative where we have some blanket contracts with
10 vendors. And I think we're going to be seeing more and
11 more emphasis placed on what are your IPv6 capable road
12 map and when will it be in hand.
13 So I don't know if I answered your question but
14 basically if you're talking about running IPv6
15 infrastructure in something like Gig bandwidth expansion
16 we think we're pretty close to doing that and we could run
17 a dual stack. Not a hundred percent.
18 There's certainly holes that were talked about
19 here as far as tools aren't always available to run a pure
20 IPv6 but of course we see transition occurring on these
21 pilot networks over a long period of time.
22 We do have running a fairly large substantiation
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1 of a dual-stack network called the Defense Research and
2 Engineering Network and we do get regularly lessons
3 learned from them and inputs into our standards work into
4 products assessment and where we need to go in the future.
5 But that is not a network that carries
6 operational traffic. And right now we have by policy no
7 IPv6 running on any networks that carry operations traffic
8 and that's because our business is mission critical.
9 And we need to solve the interoperability and be
10 assured we can solve the interoperability and security
11 problems associated with the transition before we're ready
12 to start to put it on operational networks.
13 Our plans are that that will occur over the next
14 year or so, start to see that happening, but again, we're
15 talking at the beginning probably the focus on the fixed-
16 space large networking infrastructure.
17 DR. SKALL: Can I just ask a followup? You
18 mentioned testing requirements. One of the things we're
19 very interested in at NIST, as I said before, we do a lot
20 of work in testing, conformance testing, and the generic
21 question is do we need more conformance testing procedures
22 in place?
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1 Do we need more tests in place? Do you, in
2 looking at the testing requirements, feel that you have
3 that well in hand and what's the role of the development
4 of conformance tests and how does that relate to your
5 testing plan?
6 MS. KRAUS: Well, that's a good question. In
7 fact, that's one of the tasks we've given to the
8 transition office to go back and report back with some
9 recommendations early is how we plan on making sure,
10 verifying products meet what we call IPv6 capable
11 standards.
12 Right now, there are several options that need
13 to be looked at. We have, of course, the joint
14 interoperability and test command. Then certain cases
15 does certification for the Department of Defense of
16 certain standards, that they don't do it for things like
17 IPv4 but they will do it for some tactical data links to
18 make sure products conform to those standards.
19 So that's certainly an option. We're looking
20 very closely at the logo program as being an option and
21 we're also looking at perhaps things like an open group or
22 some other group that perhaps could do a logo type of
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1 program or branding. Do we have all the testing we need?
2 No, obviously not.
3 We really see this as a multiyear program and
4 when I mean testing there's a whole variety of testing
5 from engineering testing and modeling and simulation that
6 needs to go on, and even basic things like some of these
7 transition mechanisms to make sure that they scale, to
8 make sure that we can do it in a secure way.
9 There's also product testing and that's what you
10 saw in Moonv6 the first beginnings of the interoperability
11 testing and sort of an idea of what kind of performance
12 but certainly not to any conformance type or performance
13 standards.
14 So that's going to have to be done and basically
15 we're going to have to start and our direction from our
16 senior leadership is we were going to implement a set of
17 pilots over the next three years.
18 Defense Research and Engineering Network is the
19 first one of those pilots. And as I said, as we move
20 along and implement in other controlled environments but
21 in this case operational environments, in some cases very
22 large environments. They have not been totally defined.
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1 Where we're going to do it there's going to have to be a
2 lot of testing done before then in terms of for those
3 particular networks or applications or systems to make
4 sure they meet our needs.
5 So if I can respond, I think there's a whole
6 range of testing that has to go on as with any new
7 technology that gets inserted in a major way. Department
8 of Defense Internet protocol is we're not only replacing
9 IPv4 eventually with IPv6 but we're also looking to bring
10 a lot of new users onto an IP network that previously were
11 not either attached to a network or either were attached
12 or translated through some other data link specific
13 engineered data links. So there's a whole lot of issues
14 associated with that.
15 There's also a lot of -- well, we use a lot of
16 COTS and we're certainly looking to COTS products out
17 there to solve the bulk of our needs.
18 There's a lot of long-term customized
19 development that goes on from our joint tactical radio
20 system to our transformational communications assets that
21 are going to have to be tested and engineered and tested
22 on an end-to-end basis and it really gets much beyond the
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1 issues of IPv6, those things.
2 And of course, those systems are probably one of
3 the key drivers on why we made a decision in June of 2003
4 and not a decision today is those things were being
5 designed, developed and going to come online in the next
6 four or five years and we wanted to make sure that they
7 recognized that they were going to, in all likelihood,
8 have to operate and be prepared to operate in the IPv6
9 world.
10 ASSISTANT SECRETARY GALLAGHER: Other thoughts from other
11 panelists about the degree of use or deployment of IPv6
12 within the government, just to get an idea of our baseline
13 going in? Gene.
14 MR. SOKOLOWSKI: I'd like to give you a
15 quantifiable measure but I really can't. It's not part of
16 the GSA Federal Technology Services charter but
17 nonetheless I just want to offer from our standpoint we
18 serve as a facilitator between the customer agencies on
19 the one hand and our industry partners on the other.
20 And we do that effectively in three ways. We
21 consolidate the requirements across the government; we try
22 to leverage those requirements to not only get state-of-
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1 the-art services but also at best possible prices; and
2 then we provide the contract vehicles, the mechanisms that
3 are flexible enough to allow, on the one hand, industry to
4 diffuse and deploy the emerging technologies and on the
5 other hand allow the customer agencies to procure those at
6 the best possible prices.
7 So we certainly support the diffusion of IPv6.
8 We currently have FTS 2001 is our principal contract right
9 now. IPv6 is available through our industry partners MCI
10 and Sprint. And then those contract vehicles will be
11 replaced. They'll terminate at the end of 2006. There
12 will be the successor contracts are the networks
13 acquisitions and that will have a ten-year life span. And
14 we also offer a number of IPv6 services under there.
15 So I think to summarize it GSA would follow
16 industry's lead. We certainly support the deployment of
17 IPv6 and again, to provide a quantifiable measure, I'm not
18 sure. I would defer to both Marilyn and Doug, I guess, on
19 the DHS side with their respective individual programs.
20 DR. MAUGHAN: Anything to add, Doug?
21 MR. MAUGHAN: I'm unaware of anything IPv6
22 operational in DHS at the moment.
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1 ASSISTANT SECRETARY GALLAGHER: Very good. Well,
2 that’s a quick answer. Then we're looking towards the
3 future. Preston, maybe you could share with us, you sit at
4 DARPA where it's your job to look around the corner, to look
5 over the hill, to see and be working on things that other
6 people can't quite imagine yet. Where do you see the IPv6
7 world and our evolution into it?
8 MR. MARSHALL: I think our focus is not so much
9 on the transition work but the exploitation work. I think
10 it's really hard to build a case that IPv6 is a plug-and-
11 play replacement for IPv4 is compelling.
12 If the argument is how do you exploit it and one
13 of the people who is not here, say, is Microsoft or Oracle
14 because the real question is when do they build something
15 that's IPv6 dependent? And up until now we really ask
16 people when are you going to build IPv6 operable. Not a
17 real big opportunity there.
18 So our interest is really assuming that IPv6
19 happens by policy which takes it off our plate, the same
20 plate that GOSSIP was on once. Those who can think back
21 that far. The other government-mandated protocol is
22 really thinking about not in a core infrastructure, the
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1 core infrastructure, if that makes sense.
2 People have talked about IPv6 mobility. Think
3 about putting IPv6 in your cell phone for the moment. If
4 you got to Best Buy you can buy Vonage, a little voice
5 over IP and it costs you $50 to buy their package.
6 You read the back of it and you'll read the ugly
7 words it says it needs 200 kilobits of downlink-uplink
8 bandwith. It needs 80 kilobits just to run. That's
9 replacing a 5 kilobit-per-second phone. And that's just
10 with IPv4. So imagine IPv6.
11 So the thing we want out of IPv6 is wireless.
12 That's really the big value that everybody wants, the
13 Department with JTRS. And so a lot of our research is
14 focused towards the middle ground. We know the
15 infrastructure is going to be IPv6 because someone wrote a
16 letter. He's a Secretary and he can say so. But we now
17 need to know how do we make that work in things that are
18 battery-powered, that are limited life --
19 ASSISTANT SECRETARY GALLAGHER: Can you speak into
20 the microphone.
21 MR. MARSHALL: How do we make that work in
22 things that are battery-powered, your cell phone, your
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1 IPv6 cell phone doesn't go from a 20-hour cell phone to a
2 two-hour cell phone.
3 And I think that's a large part of the chicken
4 or the egg for the philosophers. Does the network drive
5 your vision of the network application or the network
6 applications drive your vision of what the network should
7 be?
8 Right now, the IPv4 applications are really
9 driving our vision of what an IPv6 network could be. And
10 so we haven't really thought about how the thermometer at
11 home interacts with your office computer, the things that
12 are exposed.
13 And I'm not sure we, even in DARPA, have done
14 that. And I would invite anyone who's listening to come
15 and send us a proposal for something that stretches our
16 ideas there. But clearly, the peer-peer interaction
17 Internet, today you buy from someone, Vonage, even voice
18 over IP you buy from someone.
19 Well if everyone's got voice over IP why would I
20 buy it from anybody? I'd go right across the network to
21 them. So there's a lot of thinking that we're trying to
22 get to where we back out the assumptions of the hub spoke
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1 v4 network then v6 becomes enabling and really becomes
2 attractive. And then we get our payoff.
3 In the meantime, my partner next to me here has
4 the job of slugging it out with all the vendors to make
5 that part of the infrastructure reality.
6 ASSISTANT SECRETARY GALLAGHER: Responses from panelists
7 panelists to what Preston had to say? Could we hear perhaps
8 from Microsoft?
9 MR. TANNER: There is one person -- there's two
10 people from Microsoft: myself and Bill Guidera (phonetic).
11 So yeah, we look at this as an opportunity and IPv6 is
12 just another protocol, TDMA, ZDMA, 3G, et cetera, et
13 cetera, that is going to allow a ubiquitous connected
14 environment.
15 We would like and we work very closely with DOD,
16 DHS, et cetera, et cetera, to look at the opportunities to
17 articulate the need for deployment of this technology to
18 enable these scenarios. And it's our belief that the
19 opportunity is going to occur from the edge device outside
20 and remove back into the core.
21 ASSISTANT SECRETARY GALLAGHER: Good. Any other
22 thoughts? Jim.
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1 MR. BOUND: I just want to make it clear that
2 there are operational benefits with IPv6 you simply do not
3 have with IPv4, mobility being one, stateless
4 autoconfiguration being another.
5 And I would argue a restoration of end-to-end
6 security which is very important to the DOD first
7 responders and wire the mass transit bid that is going
8 down right now in New York City where they know all about
9 what happens when you're not connected.
10 ASSISTANT SECRETARY GALLAGHER: I'd like to just
11 focus on one thing because Preston raised it. What is the
12 impact? The administration, we support voice over Internet
13 protocol. We're quite pleased with what we see developing
14 in the marketplace as a technical matter and also as a
15 competitive source for phone or voice service in the local
16 market.
17 Also as a driver of broadband because you can't
18 have VoIP without broadband. What's the impact of IPv6
19 and the evolution toward an on voice over Internet
20 protocol deployment, if any?